Wayne Avenue Kroger Plans

It looks like the new plans for the new Wayne/Wyoming Kroger have been drawn up (Thanks Mark!).  Click on the picture to the right for a larger view.

What do you think about this development?  Are you for or against a new Kroger on that property?  How do you feel about the Ecki building being demolished to make room for a new Kroger?

Comments

[Mark]

As I have written elsewhere, I'm still not sure if I am for or against this project.

The current Wayne Ave. Kroger has certainly had its issues with dirtiness and infestations, let's not forget that it is Kroger who let the conditions deteriorate to the point where they are now. If this were a suburban store, the conditions would have never gotten to this point. This is the closest grocery store to my house, but I find myself using it mostly for the basics and not regular grocery shopping, although I sometimes do my regular grocery shopping there.

While I do agree that this project does have its merits--especially by providing a decent grocery store to the surrounding neighborhoods (and also increasing the appeal of downtown housing), in my gut this just isn't sitting right with me.

If this were truly about community redevelopment, as the city has said, I think there are better ways for true community betterment without displacing residents. One place to start would be through stricter code enforcement--and not just by writing a citation and that being the end of it, but actually following through with the problem until it is resolved. And for those who may not be able to afford repairs, such as seniors, there needs to be increased resources available to assist them such as program like Kettering's Housing Rehabilitation Program and Rebuilding Together Dayton. And, yes, I realize this might be a little too idealistic.

Also, I hate run down housing just as much as anyone else, especially when it is by slumlords and people who just don't care. But I am empathetic toward people who are trying their best and this housing is all they can afford. Let's face it, when the check are written for these houses, it is going to make slumlords happy and the rest of the owners will not be given enough money to replace their current house.

Some have suggested that this will displace crime, but I am really curious as to how this would accomplish that. Sure, if you replace housing with a 550 car parking lot, there is will less crime there, but that crime isn't going to just disappear, it is just going to be displaced.

I am also confused as how they plan to accomplish this project after the Ohio Supreme Court ruling with Rookwood Exchange and the City of Norwood. If the City of Dayton ends up using eminent domain (which it sounds like they will have to), I truly believe that the city should hold Midland Atlantic to higher standard. It could be by incorporating the Ecki Building into the project (highly unlikely, but the site plan does show a retail building right at that corner--probably for a CVS ;-), holding them to higher architectural standards, Kroger building and maintaining a nice bus shelter facility on the corner, and/or forcing Kroger to actively redevelop its former store (google the College Hill Kroger in Cincinnati and see how Kroger hasn't been too helpful in redeveloping an old Kroger store there). It's called reciprocity...the city scratches the developer's back, the developer needs to scratch the city's back.

[Billy@MostMetro.com]

I agree with you, Mark. I too have mixed feelings about this development.

The "for" part of me feels that it is unlikely anybody is going to come in and bring the Ecki building back to life, because it is surrounded by nothing but dilapidated houses with no historic or architectural significance (the Ecki building itself is beautiful but not historically significant). So rather than sit around and watch the Ecki building rot away until there is no choice but to raze it, why not go ahead with this development. Also, this location would be great for a nice new grocery store that would not only serve Linden Heights, Twin Towers, Walnut Hills and South Park neighborhoods - it would also be where Oregon District, Webster Station and Downtown residents would likely do their everyday grocery shopping. I don't know about the displacement or elimination of crime, but I do believe that by renewing an eyesore of a neighborhood (or at least a large corner), nearby residents might start taking more pride in their own blocks and that attitude may spread. Yes, optimistic thinking but hey - I'm an optimist!

The "against" part of me agrees with everything you just stated. The "Scary" Kroger is in the shape it is in because Kroger as a corporation let it get that way. It has done nothing to update that store, and the condition it is in is simply aplorable. Why should the city be so quick to let them tear down a whole neighborhood to build a new store? Why can't they tear down the Scary Kroger and build a nice new one there? I suppose they might have valid reasons - such as not enough available space. (Has that question even been asked of Kroger?).

And then there is the tough situation with displacing poor residents that will likely be put in a tough position if they are forced to move from their homes. Here are other good questions that I wish were asked: What percentage of those homes are owner-occupied compared to rentals? How many of the property owners don't want to sell? I don't believe in eminent domain for private development, so those owners who live in their houses should be made offers that will give them a better life elsewhere.

I understand that Kroger is a for-profit business, and if the city puts too many restrictions on them then they'll likely pass all together and focus on building a new store somewhere else. And yes, you better believe that the city critics would come out with guns a blazin' if the city did something to turn away yet another developer interested in building something new in our city. So yes, that is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Bottom line - yes I wish there were a bunch of angel investors that understood what makes for a true urban neighborhood and turned the area into the urban utopia of small thriving businesses setting up shop in renovated old buildings as hundreds of pedestrians walk to and fro as they smile and say good morning to one another. But the reality is - that corner of Wayne and Wyoming has nothing beyond the Ecki building that stands any chance of a revitalization.

And I wouldn't mind a nice place close by to shop.

[metromark]

This is a god-awful plan! It smacks of suburbia and promotes the car culture. Put all retail, including an entrance to Kroger, along Wayne and Wyoming. Put the parking in the rear,where it belongs.

Finally, I'm sad to see the Ecki building being demolished. It's a gorgeous building; and my dad, Ernie Dues, had a meat market at the corner where the green and white awning is. To honor its history, the new structures should blend with the old. Do this right!

[Dan Woodard]

If you look at the map, the plan shows a retail building at almost EXACTLY THE SAME SPOT as the current Ecki building. So this is yet another case of tearing down something and putting almost the same thing back in its place. That exemplifies everything that is wrong with our society. Not only do we have disposable silverware and throwaway cell phones, now we tear down perfectly good buildings when there is no reason to do so. The Ecki building is structurally sound, looks beautiful (save for some graffiti), and sports some unusual features. Someone should start a petition, having people sign stating that they will shop at the local Save A Lot instead (never shop at this Kroger) if they demolish the Ecki building. With 5,000 signatures, Kroger might suddenly decide that they made a mistake, and find that the Ecki building has historical significance.

[Joe]

I have recently moved to the Dayton area, and all i can say is the Ecki building is an eyesore. With the boarded up windows and the older style roof, it embodies the overall attitude of the neighborhood... history and vacancy.

The scary kroger (or ghetto kroger as the UD kids call it) is probably only still there due to the need of kroger to have a presence in the downtown area. I doubt with the conditions of the store, and the amount of business that it does that kroger can turn a profit there. Most likely, they are keeping that store alive in order to have a foothold in the dayton area, as to have rights to the spot for the new store. Or else Walmart or Target might move in and take over.

Overall, i am for the new store. Any company willing to invest money into a neighborhood that badly needs rebirth seems like a godsend to me.

[Theresa Gasper]

I don't pretend to be an expert, nor do I intend to start false rumors - these are just the things I've heard along the way, so if I'm incorrect, please let me know.

Kroger does not own the current building, it's a lease that the owner does not wish to renew. I've heard rumors of plans for the building when Krogers vacates.

Midland originally offered homeowners about 3x market rate back in 2004, but there were some hold outs - and not the body shop as they are often accused. Some absentee landlords got wind of the deal, bought vacant properties and held out for more money than Midland would pay.

That's when eminent domain came into play; which may or may not be the best way to go. I hate to see anyone forced out of their home, but there are lots of problems with drugs & prostitutes in that area. Yes, the bad guys will need someplace else to go. There are so many vacant houses in that area, that's where bad guys hang out because there is no one around to watch them. With 7000 vacant properties in this city and a very soft, buyers' market, chances are good the home owners will find a suitable replacement home. I really don't believe anyone will be tossed into the street to fend for themselves.

As for the Ecki building, I've heard that the owner is more of the problem and is holding out for a big box retailer to offer him a winning lottery amount. Many have tried to buy that building, but he's holding out.

I've seen a Kroger in Louisville blend in so well with the surrounding historic neighborhood, that I drove past it several times before I realized it was a Kroger.

Like I said above, these are things I've heard from people close to the situation but things could be lost in translation. I just don't think Kroger is the bad guy in this scenario. They're trying to invest $16m in an area that hasn't seen much development in a long time.

It can be done right if everyone comes to the table looking for a win-win situation vs wondering what's in it for them. Those neighborhoods need the Kroger as much as it needs them. I just worry that Kroger will get tired of the hassle and pull out of the neighborhood, and that will not be good for anyone involved.

[Kevin Moran]

Here's the thread at UrbanOhio on the matter:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1055.0

[Robert]

The urbanohio.com thread Kevin has linked to is very interesting, especially near the end.

Perhaps the Wayne/Wyoming developers aren't thinking about preserving the historic urban feel by putting the retail against the street with the parking in back because there are so few successful examples of that kind of new construction here in Dayton. Why, you have to go as far away as BROWN STREET to see new construction done that way. And to find more examples done by a different developer, you'd have to go all the way to the OTHER SIDE of Brown Street.

Actually, I don't care what the Kroger looks like, as long as it has a Starbucks in it like the one at Dorothy/Woodman. You wouldn't believe how far I have to go now to find a Starbucks.

[Christine Smith]

I also have mixed feelings about this. I dislike the fact that a number of poor people will be displaced. I also think the Ecki Building is beautiful in the way many of the buildings are in the area. I moved to Dayton because of the the amenities of a city, racial and class diversity, historically significant buildings, crime (oh, wait, not the last one:).
However, it is difficult to attract people to live in an area without a decent place to buy groceries. Cities that have attempted (and succeeded) in attracting people to live in and near their downtowns have also succeeded in attracting grocery stores. For example, when Portland, OR began building a large number of new apartments buildings in their downtown, they also recognized that it is difficult to attract residents when they have nowhere to shop, so they attracted a Whole Foods to the downtown.
For people who do not have cars and may rely on public transportation, having a grocery store in their community is not only a timesaver, it is economically crucial. This is ironic, because the same people who might be displaced by the Kroger are those who would also benefit.
The current Kroger is barely adequate, and to me, a large, a modern grocery store would be attractive to potential residents and demonstrate that the area is thriving.

[Drexel Dave]

I am told by Kroger employees that the Wayne Ave. Kroger is the most profitable store in the Dayton area. I don't doubt it, there is always a line full of people buying groceries.

And I have never had a problem with the cleanliness, or staff in general, except one isolated incident where an employee was very rude to me. I complained to the manager, and the employee was disciplined.

Why everyone rags on the Wayne Ave. Kroger is a mystery to me, although it's a window that reveals deep class bias in our locality.

[Kevin Moran]

If I was in a wheelchair without breaks, I would be afraid of that parking lot.

Their selection isn't on par with other local places (Kroger or not), but this issue is with the food for me, not it's patrons. I go there for non-parishables.

[nate]

I think the Ecki building is a cool building but it had a fire and has been empty for years so I see no reason why it should stay. Much as I'd love to see it restored I can understand that restoring the Ecki is probably more expensive than tearing it down.

I do wonder why Kroger wants to build a super store when that corner is already so close to their Smithville store. I'd support a new Kroger not much bigger than the current Wayne Ave. Store but not a super store on that corner.

Also, who's really scared of the Wayne Kroger? It's small and old but I've never found it to be frightening in any way.

[nate]

I think the Ecki building is a cool building but it had a fire and has been empty for years so I see no reason why it should stay. Much as I'd love to see it restored I can understand that restoring the Ecki is probably more expensive than tearing it down.

I do wonder why Kroger wants to build a super store when that corner is already so close to their Smithville store. I'd support a new Kroger not much bigger than the current Wayne Ave. Store but not a super store on that corner.

Also, who's really scared of the Wayne Kroger? It's small and old but I've never found it to be frightening in any way.

[Wanda Wiedman]

Why isn't the blame for the condition of and the need for demolition of the Ecki Building, not placed on the owner. It burned and he collected the insurance and then left it stand...no matter what he did with the insurance money. He deserves no special attention.

[Lisa Persons]

From the rumor mill: the Ecki has been secured for the project. they have approx. 30 homes left to acquire. As I have reported in other places on this site, what you see of the Ecki is just a shell, the inside is basically gone.

I agree with Wanda, if there is anyone to blame for its final destruction, that blame is deservedly place on the current owner. He walked away with $400,000 (as reported by DDN), and never looked back. But what the neighbors of this area can do, is support a useful purpose for an area that is nothing but a huge negative for all of the residents of Wayne/Wyoming.